Curse

Konig Des Todes · Aug 26, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

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Originally Posted by natmarie21

this isn't a discussion, this is an attack!

still, though, ZOMG ZOMG azazeal have you even played prohecies???

Yes, yes i have.

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to get to riverside province you have to talk to old man joness, who says that ullen river is called dark river, not just cause it's dark, but also cause a shadow is cast over it by 'something...unseen'.

Yes, Yes I know. But Ullen river is not near Rata Sum. That is what I was saying. Baka.

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this is in kryta, ruled by the white mantle, he white mantle worship the unseen aka the mursaat and the shroud is in the direction of rata sum-at that point supposedly home to the mursaat. did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, that shadow/shroud was there.

The "shroud" is on the Ullen river, which is just between the Henge of Denravi and Riverside Province. I even took a picture:

See the distance? Old Man Joness says ALONG the river, not about 50 feet from it.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Plus Az, the Dark River, also known as the Ullen, seems to connect with the river in Riven Earth. That is, before you explore the map, they're connected. Unless I'm mistaken..And I might be, I'll have to do a check.

For the sake of argument, I made a different picture, with a job from Paint. Have a look:

As you can see, the rivers via map end rather far away from each other. And the spot where Jonass is ends like a pondish area. In other words, that spot ends in a river bank. The only way the two rivers can connect is for there to be an underground tunnel that becomes a spring where we meet Jonass.

I'm running now to where Jonass is and to the end of the river in Riven Earth to look at what we can see.

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Add-on: I am still running, however, a thought. IF Rata Sum is the Mursaat city that was talked about by Jonass, then I would think that the golem generator *if it wasn't made by the Asura very fast* to be the generator for the cloak, which failed with the Mursaat's disappearance. I'll get back with the river ends.
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Add-on: Just went to the Ullen River. It does end in a bank where Jonass is. And there is no pot hole that would make a spring in what we can look at. The only possible area is where the river makes a U just past where the boat is. Got some pictures (one with a paint job to show where I mean with the U):

Ignore the chat on those. It's just my crazy guildies.

Now to go look at Riven Earth.
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Add-on: OK! I went to Riven Earth now too. Sadly, can't see any end thanks to cliffs *clever ANet, clever*. But I got the two bests shots I can find.

No sign of a underwater tunnel, but that doesn't mean there is one. But this doesn't prove there is one either. So whether the rivers are the same, are up to opinion until ANet confirms this.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by natmarie21

i never said that they didn't control the waters, i said that they could have controlled the waters + tc. so your previous comment about my quotation not proving my point is invalid, and it wassn't even put there to prove a point, i put it there because you said that you couldn't see it. don't know why...

Oh, I saw that, but like I said before, that says nothing about controlling the Tarnished Coast, which is why it helps me and Free Runner more then you. And I never said you said they didn't control the waters. I said you didn't know how they could control the water without controling the Tarnished Coast.

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how can you control the waters around somewhere and not own at least the coast.

Not in the same post, but it's the basis of your argument.

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also, why wouldn't a historian go with soldiers etc on an assault, they'd be there to record events so that the people in orr would know what was happening and the events would go into history books

A smart historian would never risk his life with going with the first wave. And the man was obviously very smart to write The History of Tyria. *basically the lore found in the Prophecies Manuscripts*.

Not to mention, why even continue this little bit when it is a KNOWN FACT that the Orrians were peaceful? AND if the Orrians did in fact attack Kryta, it would be in the timeline. There would be hints to it. Much more then the Scepter of Orr being buried in Majesty's Rest and Orrian tablets buried in sand *or dirt near sand*.

draxynnic · Aug 26, 2008, 03:12 AM // 03:12

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

As to Azazel's bit about Awata, it has not been confirmed by Anet that it was a Charr while alive, but honestly, do we need confirmation on that? At least we're not trying to make a theory that the Charr ruled from the plains of Ascalon to the Desolation.

Which is nearly as absurd as the link you're trying to make with the Lost Scrolls having been from Fahranur. Honestly..Why can't Fahranur have the Apocrypha and Arah have the Lost Scrolls? Is there something so evil, so undeniably horrible about that that you just cannot even begin to accept the fact, that if you were to do so, it would not drive all your conceptions of reality out the window and break your mind down to the point of insanity?

Actually, that theory isn't all that absurd. We know that the Charr did rule what is now Ascalon before the Ascalonians pushed them out and built the wall. It's not that implausible that they may have extended further south and east along the shores of the Crystal Sea, in areas that aren't on the map. Awata and others might be explainable by Palawa hitting ancient Charr graveyards on the northeastern edge of the Desolation.

Regarding the Orrian undead in Kryta: It's pretty clear in the storyline where they came from. The Cataclysm turned the people of Orr into undead, and then the Lich directed them to attack Kryta. There was no large Orrian presence, living or dead, in Kryta before the Cataclysm - the invasion came after the Orrian people was made into undead. It's also worth noting that the Cataclysm only had that effects on those actually in Orr - according to the GW2 bridging story, there are still people of Orrian decent around now, although they try to hide their ancestry. So it's not like there was a large Orrian population in Kryta that spontaneously died and rose as undead because of an event happening across the ocean.

That said, I'm not sure the peacefulness of Orr isn't exaggerated. While they did initially try to stay out of the Guild Wars, the implication I've received is that they were a full participant once they were dragged in rather than simply trying to protect their borders - seaborne raids on Kryta wouldn't be that far-fetched.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 26, 2008, 03:42 AM // 03:42

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

Actually, that theory isn't all that absurd. We know that the Charr did rule what is now Ascalon before the Ascalonians pushed them out and built the wall. It's not that implausible that they may have extended further south and east along the shores of the Crystal Sea, in areas that aren't on the map. Awata and others might be explainable by Palawa hitting ancient Charr graveyards on the northeastern edge of the Desolation.

Re-read the Ecology of the Charr. Their domain never went south of the Blazridge Mountains.

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That said, I'm not sure the peacefulness of Orr isn't exaggerated. While they did initially try to stay out of the Guild Wars, the implication I've received is that they were a full participant once they were dragged in rather than simply trying to protect their borders - seaborne raids on Kryta wouldn't be that far-fetched.

Meh, I disagree but neither side can be proven atm.

Free Runner · Aug 26, 2008, 08:49 AM // 08:49

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Originally Posted by natmarie21

well, can you give me a citation that says that nobody lived at TC? i'm pretty sure that the mursaat did. i'm pretty sure that they resided in rata sum which is an anagram for mursaat. i'm pretty sure that ullen river has a dark shroud which covers the mursaat controlled city of rata sum.

Again i'm going to reuse my quote.

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Originally Posted by Myself

This was brought up in the other thread. The Tarnished Coast is actually uninhabited prior to the Asura. Well okay the Mursaat may of been there. But other than that all it had was its many Simian, Dinosaurs and Frogmen. The Orrian expansion is actually reffering to the Shards of Orr - inside it looks alot like present day Cantha on the first level.

Its true the Mursaat could of been there. Infact its a very strong possiblity. However if they had i believe they would of Inhabited the areas near Rata Sum rather than the whole coast. Now considering the lack of buildings around the Tarnished Coast one would assume nobody was there right? all thats there is an abandoned City and a haven for Krytans who have got away from the Mantle. Everything else is packed with Dinosaurs ect.

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ok. i've looked in the web. and no where does it explicitly say that the orrians did control tarnished coast, but why would they say that? after all, they fun isn't in the kill, it's in the chase.

Why would who say that?. If they had controlled the Tarnished Coast dont you think the timeline would have it down? perhaps a "Orr control expands into the Tarnished Coast"?

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but there are a number of reasons as to why the orrians would want to control TC. the 2nd great corsair war ended around the time that the guild wars started. before the guild wars started, i think it's pretty clear that orr could see it coming. kryta + ascalon had already started fueding, orr stayed neutral and only intervened when the fight went to them. if orr controlled TC they could have taken the fight to kryta. kryta would be trapped-ascalon in the east, orr, south/west depending on the time and how far north the orrians had travelled

Not really. Controlling an area like the Tarnished Coast wouldnt give you much of an advantage in the Guild Wars. Remember it wasnt one big all out war - it was small battles between opposing guilds of each nation. Using the Tarnished Coast to attack Kryta would mean in order to get a suprise attack on a guild you would have to make your way up the coast and through the Magumma - which isnt something a guild preparing to fight another really wants to do. I dont think the Raptors,Simian Frogmen and Quetzel would just allow them to stroll through. Then theres the Mursaat if they did indeed live there.

If you went from there by sea it would have the same effect as going from Orr. I'm betting the guilds of Kryta had their eyes on the seas. So the TC wouldnt help much.

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Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Seeing how the Asura said that those towns were already there when they got there, IF *and a big IF* Orr really did control parts of the Tarnish Coast, would it be possible that those structures where Orrian and not Mursaat. Seeing how they don't really fit the Mursaat structure. The structures are magical and seem to fit with the idea of a "city of the gods" look, so it would be possible if they just copied the buildings.

Like GmrLeon said we dont have much to compare too. I'm guessing by structures your talking about Rata Sum? we know the Asura erected the huge energy thing in the middle but the thing its perched on appears to be part of some building. Though what do we consider a "Mursaat Structure"? we dont really have much to compare too on that ether.

Symeon · Aug 26, 2008, 09:25 AM // 09:25

The river in Riven Earth is definitely not the Ullen river. It's flowing the wrong way. From the waterfall on the eastern side of the zone, it flows northwest, presumably towards the various puddles of Tangle Root.

Meanwhile, the Ullen River originates from the spring next to the Riverside Province outpost, and flows west, also into Tangle Root:

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Originally Posted by Riverside Province description

The Ullen River originates from the farthest south of the Footprint Lakes. The River flows west into the jungle, then turns decidedly south at the Henge of Denravi. Its swift currents and shallow inlets would make it an ideal trading river but for the fact that there are few settlements on its backs.

The last part is confusing, since the river appears to end a fair distance from the Henge of Denravi, and there is no evidence of it turning southwards. So there are actually two separate rivers that fizzle out upon reaching the jungle. Perhaps ANet meant the two rivers to be the same, but mixed up their directions.

I would also add that in real world terms the two rivers are geographically implausible given their lengths (as is the river that flows from Giant's Basin almost immediately into a large delta, but that's another matter). One would expect the two rivers to merge and continue towards the sea, not end abruptly at the bottom of the jungle.

Yet another mix-up with the Ullen River occurs in the Riverside Province mission:

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Originally Posted by Dinas

My friends, it is good to see you again. I didn't think when we met off the D'Alessio Seaboard that I would be giving you the Scepter of Orr. Come, you must not linger here. The Zealots will be back soon. I will show you the quickest escape route. To the east is a bridge that will take you over the Ullen River to safety. Stay off the beaten path, and whatever you do, avoid the watchtowers! Many men have died for this. Guard it with your life.

But what the bridge crosses is really just a small cove, with no connection to the river:

And finally, a note about Rata Sum - the in-game description indicates that it was built entirely by the Asura (though they may have destroyed whatever Mursaat structures were there beforehand):

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Originally Posted by Rata Sum

The hub of Asuran activity on the surface world, Rata Sum was quickly and magically erected when the race arrived from their native underground homes. Geomystic generators dot the area, providing free power to the town. Some find the atmosphere within the town uncomfortable, saying you can literally feel the Energy being sucked from the air, but the Asura vow this enchanted technology is "perfectly safe".

Gmr Leon · Aug 26, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

From what I can tell by double-checking the river from the Henge of Denravi. It seems that the origin of the Ullen River is actually within the Henge of Denravi, and the path you follow on the quest that takes you to Old Joness has you following it. Albeit from a higher elevation.

Early on outside of Henge of Denravi it divides into two rivers and then joins back together right next the Old Joness' dock. However, oddly enough, it does not connect with the rest of the Ullen River. Although I still think it's considered one entire river.

The description is very confusing from Riverside Province. It says it originates from the farthest south of the Footprint Lakes. The only problem is, you can't see any lakes or any likely locations for them around the end point of the Ullen at Riverside Province. However, if you look at the lake in the Henge of Denravi, just in front of the fountain, and then go near the portal to the outside area, you see where a river flows out from the bottom part of the lake and as I said, you follow it from a higher elevation to Old Joness.

It even flows west into the Jungle and then kind of turns decidedly south only to go north.

As to the river that flows into a delta north of Giant's Basin..I always took that as an elevation difference, personally.

draxynnic · Aug 27, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

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Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Re-read the Ecology of the Charr. Their domain never went south of the Blazridge Mountains.

That I'd been keeping in mind. More importantly, on double-checking the combined map the Crystal Desert is directly north of the Desolation rather than north and west as I'd thought.

natmarie21 · Aug 27, 2008, 11:53 AM // 11:53

free runner, by citation i mean from an official source, not just something that you said -.-

Free Runner · Aug 27, 2008, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Actually in that quote i was reffering to the fact i did mention the Mursaat could of lived there. You notice how i bolded that part? and then went on to talk about the Mursaat while not saying that my word was official source? no of course you didnt -_-

Konig Des Todes · Aug 27, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

and then went on to talk about the Mursaat while not saying that my word was official source? no of course you didnt -_-

Uhhh.... /confused Please reword >.< I don't get what you are saying.

But besides that, natmarie, King Symeon already gave a citation where it shows Rata Sum not being made by the Mursaat, but by the Asura. I shall reuse his quote.

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Originally Posted by Rata Sum

The hub of Asuran activity on the surface world, Rata Sum was quickly and magically erected when the race arrived from their native underground homes. Geomystic generators dot the area, providing free power to the town. Some find the atmosphere within the town uncomfortable, saying you can literally feel the Energy being sucked from the air, but the Asura vow this enchanted technology is "perfectly safe".

Notice the bolded parts? Good.

Free Runner · Aug 27, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

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Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Uhhh.... /confused Please reword >.< I don't get what you are saying.

Sarcasm. I was saying that i only talked about the Mursaat possibly being in the Tarnished Coast in my previous post - while never saying anything about my word being an "official source" on the Tarnished Coast being uninhabited.

But anyway we've strayed way OT here. We should probably get back to discussing Fahranur.